Crivens! The Feegles are ... apparently Christians?!

[RathDarkblade]

Heh. I only bring this up because I was recently curious as to what "Crivens" actually means. Here's what Wiktionary has to say about it:

Etymology
Borrowed from Scots crivvens. Attested in English from the early 20th century.

Interjection
crivvens

1. (Scotland, chiefly Dundee) An exclamation of astonishment or horror.
   Jings, crivvens an' help ma boab!

Etymology
From earlier criffins, a euphemistic alteration of Christ fend us. Attested from the late 19th century.

"Christ fend us"? Does that mean the Feegles believe in Jesus now? I doubt it ... What do you think, hmm?

 

[=Tamar]

That's what it meant in early 20th century Scotland... What it means on the Disc can only be known by the Feegles.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Yes, but seeing as the Feegles are kind-of-sort-of Scottish ( ), doesn't that mean that the meaning is the same (or very similar)?

For instance, Rob Anybody tells Miss Tick that "pished" means "tired". Obviously that's not exactly true, since "pished" means ... exactly how it sounds (

Spoiler

slang for "drunk"

). So ... does "crivens" for the Feegles mean that the Feegles are Christians?

(I really, really doubt it, but hey. Maybe it was one of Pterry's stealth jokes - i.e. some ultra-fundamentalist Christian will pick up "TWFM", get offended by the Feegles, but then interpret the "crivens" as evidence that the Feegles MUST be Christians, and get very confused and conflicted)

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Yes, but seeing as the Feegles are kind-of-sort-of Scottish ( ), doesn't that mean that the meaning is the same (or very similar)?

For instance, Rob Anybody tells Miss Tick that "pished" means "tired". Obviously that's not exactly true, since "pished" means ... exactly how it sounds (

Spoiler

slang for "drunk"

). So ... does "crivens" for the Feegles mean that the Feegles are Christians?

(I really, really doubt it, but hey. Maybe it was one of Pterry's stealth jokes - i.e. some ultra-fundamentalist Christian will pick up "TWFM", get offended by the Feegles, but then interpret the "crivens" as evidence that the Feegles MUST be Christians, and get very confused and conflicted)

Rath! Terry was extracting the urine with the Wee Free Men, and the Presbyterians strict church members.
Extract below.
I had read about the Wee Frees of Scotland before, but this church—the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland—was something slightly different. These are the “Wee Wee Frees”—a reform church founded in 1893 as a breakaway from the Wee Frees (aka, The Free Church of Scotland). Church histories are always complex, but as I understand it, the Free Presbyterian Church was established in a move of separation from The Free Church of Scotland, which itself is a breakaway from the mainstream protestant movement, which broke away from Catholicism in the original Scottish Reformation.
Crivens and Help ma bob or boab are old Scottish expressions of astonishment or exasperation.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I had read about the Wee Frees of Scotland before, but this church—the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland—was something slightly different. These are the “Wee Wee Frees”—a reform church founded in 1893 as a breakaway from the Wee Frees (aka, The Free Church of Scotland). Church histories are always complex, but as I understand it, the Free Presbyterian Church was established in a move of separation from The Free Church of Scotland, which itself is a breakaway from the mainstream protestant movement, which broke away from Catholicism in the original Scottish Reformation.

Ach, waily waily. Who'd have thought Church history would be so complicated? (Yes, I read the whole thing)

Thanks, Dug! It makes more sense now

Incidentally, from wikipedia:
Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men is an epithet for his Nac Mac Feegle who appear in some of his Discworld novels. He denied they are caricatures of Scots or churchmen saying "The Nac Mac Feegle are not Scottish. There is no Scotland on Discworld. They may, in subtle ways, suggest some aspects of the Scottish character as filtered through the media, but that's because of quantum."

I have to wonder: does the phrase "Nac Mac Feegle" mean anything in Scotland? I know that "Mac" means "Son of" (as in MacDonald, MacBeth, Fionn mac Cumhaill/Finn MacCool and so on). So what does "Nac Mac Feegle" mean, if anything? Just curious.

 

[Tonyblack]

I remember swreader (Charlene) telling me about the "Wee Frees". She knew a lot more about British history than I did. I think it has something to do with the fact that people in Britain have a more focused history of Britain that other countries do.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Ach, waily waily. Who'd have thought Church history would be so complicated? (Yes, I read the whole thing)

Thanks, Dug! It makes more sense now

Incidentally, from wikipedia:
Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men is an epithet for his Nac Mac Feegle who appear in some of his Discworld novels. He denied they are caricatures of Scots or churchmen saying "The Nac Mac Feegle are not Scottish. There is no Scotland on Discworld. They may, in subtle ways, suggest some aspects of the Scottish character as filtered through the media, but that's because of quantum."

I have to wonder: does the phrase "Nac Mac Feegle" mean anything in Scotland? I know that "Mac" means "Son of" (as in MacDonald, MacBeth, Fionn mac Cumhaill/Finn MacCool and so on). So what does "Nac Mac Feegle" mean, if anything? Just curious.

Nothing, it's what Terry used /invented or what ever you want to call it.
Rath have a look at this film( Presbyterianism in action) the 1949 version one of my favorite films based on a true story Whisky Galore. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042040/mediaviewer/rm3540310017/?ref_=tt_ov_i
There is also the remake in 2017 not as good but still OK. Might even make more sense for you overall.

 

[raisindot]

Heh. I only bring this up because I was recently curious as to what "Crivens" actually means. Here's what Wiktionary has to say about it:



"Christ fend us"? Does that mean the Feegles believe in Jesus now? I doubt it ... What do you think, hmm?

Are those who worship Offler really Sobekians because he was a crocodile god? Are Discworld dwarfs Deists because they believe their god created the world and then left it to run on its own? Are the Ankh Morporkh golems Jewish because they're based on Jewish golem folk tales and use Yiddish words? Of course not.

Besides, the Greek word "christ" means "the anointed one" which, in ancient Judea, became a synonym for "the messiah." So, the Christian's god's translated name is "Jesus the Messiah." There were dozens of messiah candidates in ancient Judea, any one of who might have called something like "Reuben Christ," or "Yosef Christ" until they were all proven that they WEREN'T the Jewish messiah.