SPOILERS Eric Discussion **Spoilers**

[Anonymous]

Do we count both this discussion and the "pre-Eric discussion discussion" as discussions of Eric?

I'd hate to think in only a few days that this lower-tier effort has engendered more posts than those for The Truth, Mort, Soul Music, Unseen Academicals and (*sniff*) The Fifth Elephant...

The board has more members now

 

[Tonyblack]

Do we count both this discussion and the "pre-Eric discussion discussion" as discussions of Eric?

I'd hate to think in only a few days that this lower-tier effort has engendered more posts than those for The Truth, Mort, Soul Music, Unseen Academicals and (*sniff*) The Fifth Elephant...

Forget the pre-Eric discussion, it very quickly turned into a discussion about anagrams and then to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

 

[Tonyblack]

I was looking up Astfgl on the LSpace Wiki and found this, which I thought was rather apt. I wonder if Terry had it in mind when he wrote Eric:

The Portuguese military dictator General Salazar was effectively deposed when he suffered a life-threatening stroke that kept him bedridden and unable to move for the rest of his life.

The interesting thing is that nobody could bring themselves to tell him this, and to the end of his life, Salazar lived under the delusion that he was still Generalissimo and national ruler, although power had passed to other hands. He continued to issue laws and decrees from his bed, and a small staff who were in on the secret would dutifully record his wishes, take them away, and assure him his will would be done. They also controlled his access to the media, TV, radio, et c. In the meantime his successor got on with ruling Portugal, totally unimpeded and happy for his predecessor to carry on thinking he was the boss...

 

[Anonymous]

I have always enjoyed this book, even though it is a short book compared to the rest, I will have to re-read it and post my thoughts again as it has been a while since I last read it.

 

[ChristianBecker]

I was looking up Astfgl on the LSpace Wiki and found this, which I thought was rather apt. I wonder if Terry had it in mind when he wrote Eric:

The Portuguese military dictator General Salazar was effectively deposed when he suffered a life-threatening stroke that kept him bedridden and unable to move for the rest of his life.

The interesting thing is that nobody could bring themselves to tell him this, and to the end of his life, Salazar lived under the delusion that he was still Generalissimo and national ruler, although power had passed to other hands. He continued to issue laws and decrees from his bed, and a small staff who were in on the secret would dutifully record his wishes, take them away, and assure him his will would be done. They also controlled his access to the media, TV, radio, et c. In the meantime his successor got on with ruling Portugal, totally unimpeded and happy for his predecessor to carry on thinking he was the boss...

Totally unrelated. There was a German movie (Goodbye Lenin IIRC) exactly along these lines. A mother had a heartstroke or something in the GDR and fell in a coma. Then Germany was reunited, Some time later the woman woke up again and the doctors said every excitement could cause her to die. So her children keep up the illusion the GDR still existed by repackaging wares into old GDR containers, faking newspapers and so on.

But what I think Terry was really getting at in Eric with the deposal of Astfgl was that the people "in charge" are not necessarily really in charge but only have the highest post, whatever that means. Just like our (Germnany's) president, who doesn't do much in the ways of ruling the country; or like the Queen.

 

[poohcarrot]

The Faust of early books—as well as the ballads, dramas and puppet-plays which grew out of them—is irrevocably damned because he prefers human to divine knowledge; "he laid the Holy Scriptures behind the door and under the bench, refused to be called doctor of Theology, but preferred to be styled doctor of Medicine".

So a person who chooses science over religion.

Just like Mau in Nation. 8)

Just like Terry Pratchett himself. 8)

A coincidence? I think not!

 

[swreader]

This book should probably have been called "Rincewind's Return" and not Eric. It is neither about Faust (in any of the versions) nor about the not-quite-14-year-old would be demonologist, Eric Thursley. As Tony has noted, TP had a busy year and perhaps the work with Neil Gaiman on Good Omens had some minor influence. Certainly the sections in Hell seem to me to be the funniest. But the most significant feature, I think, of this very slim and only mildly funny novel is the use of the three wishes--an element which seems to be totally absent from all the Dr. Faustus versions.

The most significant characteristics of the three wishes folk legend, which Terry will use later in Hat Full of Sky , are that the wishes usually work quite literally, though not in the way expected, and that the third wish has to be used to undo the harm of the first two. And to some extent Eric's wishes follow the ususal pattern.

Traditionally in the folk tales, there is no concern for the "happiness" of anyone other than the individual with the witches. Terry, however, adds the idea that the three wishes are designed to make the greatest number of people happy. But it's not entirely clear what happened to Eric. Certainly his experiences about being a ruler and having a chest of gold, turn out to be illusory. His wish to live forever is not sufficiently detailed though. And of course, Helen is a middle-aged mother by the time he meets her.

I agree, the parrot is totally unnecessary as well as unfunny. There are some small elements of humor, especially when they finally arrive at Hell. But the rest of the book is not particularly funny. And it shows, in my opinion, the speed at which is must have been written. There are a fair number of "loose ends" and some outright contradictions.

For example, Rincewind (feeling that things could have been a lot worse), steps off the road of good intentions, through a wall which healed up behind him. As far as I can tell, Eric is left standing on "For the Sake of the Children," and one suspects that Eric may not be happy.

I have to say that I didn't hate the book--which I did the first time I read it. I did find parts of it mildly amusing, especially Pratchett's depiction of the new version of Hell. I haven't seen the illustrations, but as I dislike Kirby's work, I doubt this would improve my feeling about the book.

All of this puts me in the unusual position of joining Pooh and Quatermas in thinking this is a mighty thin book.

 

[poohcarrot]

All of this puts me in the unusual position of joining Pooh and Quatermas in thinking this is a mighty thin book.

I've just looked out the window and there are some pigs flying past a blue moon!

Helen of Troy is in one of the versions of Faust.

If the devil-type person (can't be bothered to look for his name) has the ability to travel in time, then when he goes to the end of the world and Rincewind isn't there, he could easily get to the start of the world and find Rincewind. There's no reason why he'd be late and just miss Rincewind.

 

[Anonymous]

There's no reason why he'd be late and just miss Rincewind.

Narrative Causality?

 

[Tonyblack]

I've never read Faust in any version, so I was interested to find if Sharlene had. Not only have she read the Goethe version, but she'd read it in German. She pointed out that Helen of Troy is in it - I had no idea.

But what amazed me was how many books, films, operas etc. Faust has inspired. Take a look at this list.

I would say that Eric is inspired by Faust rather than it being based on it. The whole selling one's soul to the Devil is a theme that seems to crop up time and again. One of my favourites being Peter Cook and Dudley Moore's Bedazzled.

There seem to be more stories based on a deal with the Devil than people living good lives and, in effect, making a deal with God. Maybe that says a lot about human nature - but the fact that the Faust story has been around for so long and is still an inspiration kind of says that people will do anything for power.

You could even look at the temptation of Jesus in the desert as somewhat Faustian.

 

[Dotsie]

For example, Rincewind (feeling that things could have been a lot worse), steps off the road of good intentions, through a wall which healed up behind him. As far as I can tell, Eric is left standing on "For the Sake of the Children," and one suspects that Eric may not be happy.

Interesting, but that didn't occur to me. I don't think Eric would have been stuck in hell, after all, Vassenego had just given the order that they be let go, so why wouldn't he be? And as the section began with "Rincewind and Eric were happy", I don't think Eric describing the steps as 'wierd' is enough to suppose that he's not.

 

[Bouncy Castle]

I read Eric yesterday (I also read a new Agatha Raisin, but that's another story - ha!!).

Anyhoo, one thing puzzled me.

When they found out that the fair lady was actually a rather plain lady with a squillion kids, Rinso's ancestor (forgot his name already!!) said something like "couldn't you have dropped us a note, or invited us to one of the christenings...?".

Christenings?

Surely Christ is one of the few gods NOT on Discworld?

Baptisms would have been a better word, no?

 

[Tonyblack]

Maybe Tsorteans are members of the Church of Chris.

Yes, I noticed that as well.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

But what would you call that occasion? Small Gods is a way off being written so 'Omnianings' out and 'Offlering' sounds silly. Naming ceremony maybe? Lots of cultures have the equivalent of christenings without being religious necessarily - wetting the baby's head doesn't have quite the formality but would have done I suppose

 

[Anonymous]

Go with the german/Überwaldean 'Taufe'?

 

[Dotsie]

I guess Terry just wanted to make a joke that would be understood. Neither christening or baptism would be appropriate terms on the disc, but we got the joke, right?

Anyway, for all we know, on the Disc a ceremony to enter a religion is commonly known as a christening. Works for me.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, there's another use of the word 'christening' in Soul Music. Maybe it's simply a case of lack of better terms. Can happen to everyone.

 

[poohcarrot]

I read Eric yesterday (I also read a new Agatha Raisin, but that's another story - ha!!).

Anyhoo, one thing puzzled me.

When they found out that the fair lady was actually a rather plain lady with a squillion kids, Rinso's ancestor (forgot his name already!!) said something like "couldn't you have dropped us a note, or invited us to one of the christenings...?".

Christenings?

Surely Christ is one of the few gods NOT on Discworld?

Baptisms would have been a better word, no?

My Gods Bouncy! I never noticed that! Damn good spot old sausage.

Anyhoos, weren't baptisms named after John the Baptist?

 

[ChristianBecker]

In Mort Mort asks Death what he thought about christenings. I guess it's really the lack of a better term. You could of course use something like "naming ceremony", but that doesn't exactly roll of the tongue.

Anyway, the word baptism comes from the greek word βαπτίζω (baptizo) meaning "to submerge" (and later of course "to christen"). So baptism would be inadequate because we don't know if there's any water involved in naming ceremonies on the disc.

Come to think about it, are Muslims christened/ baptized? What about Hindus etc.?

 

[Tonyblack]

Don't they refer to Magrat and Verence's baby having a naming ceremony?

But it really comes down to poetic licence. Just about everyone who read that passage knew what Terry meant. I don't think it really matters that it wasn't some sort of Christian ceremony.