SPOILERS Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

The reason for the coach trip - aside from underlining that 'good' witches don't have to do 'nice' and Nanny and Granny's take on not being nice - is surely that they meet Henry Slugg and are pulled into his little scam with his professional career based on Enrico Basilico?

Actually with the coach I'm kind of reminded of Stagecoach (v. early John Wayne in B&W) with Nanny getting on everyone's nerves and Granny doing the deal with Death (I think they had to deliver a baby at the coach stop-off in the movie too) - just a difference in genre and making up stories about the fellow travellers and what secrets they had

 

[swreader]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head in saying that the problem is that Terry wants to introduce Agnes (after all, she's barely mentioned in L&L). And he's said before that a coven needs three witches. Magrat is more Queen than Witch now (as shows in the later CJ). And really the most remarkable thing one notices about Agnes is her voice--and she doesn't have a chance to show it off in Lancre. So if she goes to Lancre, why do the others go? And so he cobbles together the other plot without any clear idea of what Nanny and Granny are really there for.

And of course the rascally publisher provides a sort of reason for the trip, as does the tea-leaf with the skull that they both see when they think of Agnes. Then his problem is how to get all of them together--and of course the opera provides that chance.

The major villain in this book of course is Salzella, who has set up a scheme to cover his embezzlement by creating a 2nd opera Ghost. And even if we allow for the murders of anyone who might expose him (or attempted murders), he's nothing like the supernatural opponents they usually deal with.

I don't really agree with Tony that he can't give up his role as the Ghost--I think he's just about ready to split. Perhaps his embezzlement provides some excuse for the presence of Andre as the undercover policeman--but that point certainly isn't clear. I think that things are getting a bit too "hot" at the opera, and he is caught before he can escape. But of course, if he really loved and understood opera, he'd have been unable to harm it (like Granny being unable to do really nasty things to him because, as she tells Walter, she's a good witch.)

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

especially the scene with Death. It serves no real purpose, although it makes it quite clear that Granny isn't intimidated by DEATH. Just why she makes the challenge puzzles me as much as it puzzles DEATH. It's almost as if she's at a place of deep depression and doesn't much care whether she lives or dies.

I disagree with the dismissal of this scene. As a healer Granny has to do whatever she can to save the sick baby. Also I don't think her life is at risk - I think the double or quits refers to the cow and the baby.

 

[raisindot]

especially the scene with Death. It serves no real purpose, although it makes it quite clear that Granny isn't intimidated by DEATH. Just why she makes the challenge puzzles me as much as it puzzles DEATH. It's almost as if she's at a place of deep depression and doesn't much care whether she lives or dies.

I disagree with the dismissal of this scene. As a healer Granny has to do whatever she can to save the sick baby. Also I don't think her life is at risk - I think the double or quits refers to the cow and the baby.

No, actually Granny is betting her own life and that of the baby (and maybe even the cow), as the scene is a spoof of the famous scene in "The Seventh Seal" where a Knight (played by Max Von Sydow) bets his life against the life of others in a chess game against Death. It's probably also a spoof of a Woody Allen one scene plays (forgot the name) that itself is a spoof of the SS scene in which a dying man plays a winner take all card game against Death.

It's also interesting to compare this scene to the scene at the beginning of Carpe Jugulum where Granny faces a similar life or death decision but doesn't bet her way out of it.

J-I-B

J-I-B

 

[poohcarrot]

Much as I'd like to pick an argument with SW or J-I*b, I can't.

Having read what they both have said, for once I agree with most of their comments.

 

[Tonyblack]

Does anyone else think that the whole book thing was a ploy engineered by Nanny to get Granny to A-M?

We are made to believe that Nanny is being conned by the publisher, but I think she is far too canny to let that happen. She knows it will get Granny's attention and cause her to act superior. Nanny is pretty good at Headology as well.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

No, or at least not entirely.

Although I agree Nanny is probably devious enough for it I don't think there's much in the book to suggest it was a set up, more a case of improvising with what came along.

 

[raisindot]

Well, I finally ended up re-reading the whole thing again, and my opinion hasn't changed. For me, this is still one of the weaker entries in the series.

There just seemed to be so many things that were "forced" in this. Even if PTerry's attempt was to create an operatic novel about opera, it just doesn't work for me. The thing about opera is that (if you like it) you're willing to forgive the silly plots because the music and singing is so good. A novel that uses operatic conventions, however, is just silly.

Things that really annoyed me:

1. The overuse of exclamation marks. Yes, this an an overdramatic convention, but still endlessly annoying.

2. The endless repeating of the phrase, "The show must go on."

3. The witches acting totally out of character. Why would someone like Granny Weatherwax, who never claims to be anything other than she is, dress up in finery and fake an identity just to get into the opera box she could have easily gotten into by using witchery? If this is supposed to be part of the whole notion of her needed a diversion from the humdrum of Lancre, it just seems very unnatural.

4. Agnes. I don't get her character here. She'll be totally submissive to Christine and to the opera people, but she is very disrespectul to Granny Weatherwax, someone she knows could do her great harm. And she just isn't strong enough a character to carry the story, which is why PTerry dropped in the other witches.

5. The misuse of Nobby and Detritus. Their appearance seems to be a sop to the Watch fans, but they add nothing. And the references to Detritus as the stupidest troll in the city are a bit cruel, given his demonstration of genius intelligence in the Pork Futures Warehouse in Men at Arms.

Fortunately, Pterry recovered from this and was back to peak form in "Feet of Clay," which came after this.

J-I-B

 

[poohcarrot]

Sorry J-I*b, but I still agree with you.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Well I don't

I agree this isn't one of the books that deals with deep themes but I find it an entertaining read.

3. The witches acting totally out of character. Why would someone like Granny Weatherwax, who never claims to be anything other than she is, dress up in finery and fake an identity just to get into the opera box she could have easily gotten into by using witchery? If this is supposed to be part of the whole notion of her needed a diversion from the humdrum of Lancre, it just seems very unnatural.

I think Granny does it for fun, I can certainly believe she would see the appeal in overawing Mr Bucket into selling her the box and generally discomforting the posh types. Don't forget she spends most of her time practising misdirection and exploiting peoples gullability. She may know who she is but that's not necessarily the face her clients see - a fact we come across again and again in Lords and Ladies and Carpe Jugulum.

4. Agnes. I don't get her character here. She'll be totally submissive to Christine and to the opera people, but she is very disrespectul to Granny Weatherwax, someone she knows could do her great harm. And she just isn't strong enough a character to carry the story, which is why PTerry dropped in the other witches.

My impression is that Agnes is submissive to the opera crowd because she wants to be part of them and in order to live her dream she can't really allow herself to see how ridiculous much of it is. ANd actually this is very well done, the bits where Agnes takes an outsiders view are quite believable.
Is it really likely that Granny would do Agnes much harm? She's the good witch after all. Agnes understands that much however much she wants to get away from Lancre and becoming a witch into an easier and much less demanding life.

 

[Dotsie]

3. The witches acting totally out of character. Why would someone like Granny Weatherwax, who never claims to be anything other than she is, dress up in finery and fake an identity just to get into the opera box she could have easily gotten into by using witchery? If this is supposed to be part of the whole notion of her needed a diversion from the humdrum of Lancre, it just seems very unnatural.

I do have to disagree with this point. Firstly, Granny often claims to be something other than she is, when for example she hams up the harmless old lady act. Secondly, this method of getting into the box is witchery. She doesn't use magic when faking it (or "headology") will do. Thirdly, women like dressing up, which is clearly the motivation for this particular plan, and women who rely on clothes donations from grateful villagers probably don't get the chance very often.

 

[poohcarrot]

Thirdly, women like dressing up,

Bet if I'd said that I'd have been called a sexist pig!

 

[Dotsie]

Not by me. But maybe

 

[poohcarrot]

So what you're saying Dotsie, is that you'll be tarting yourself up for the Con.

 

[Dotsie]

I already look like a tart. No extra work is necessary

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Thirdly, women like dressing up,

Bet if I'd said that I'd have been called a sexist pig!

You'd be disappointed if we didn't give you a slap choochy face

Yes we like to dress up once in a while, but I think the real reason Granny wanted the full monty opera gear was to squander Nanny's earnings - just keeping her hand in with the general spitefulness. She's not nice remember

 

[poohcarrot]

You could put sequins on your sports bra!

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Dotsie may look like a tart but not a tacky one

 

[Dotsie]

Thanks Jan

 

[Tonyblack]

Can we try to keep this discussion on topic please?