SPOILERS Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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I haven't finished reading Maskerade yet, But this morning I just came past something that I Think could possibly be a Monty Python reference.
I think it look a bit like the four Yorkshire men sketch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
I think it look a bit like the four Yorkshire men sketch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
My dad just told me that it's even older it's actually from the At Last The 1948 Show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtSw3daGoo
with half of the Python gang. The other half was in Do Not Adjust your set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtSw3daGoo
with half of the Python gang. The other half was in Do Not Adjust your set
Um... I feel free to comment in this old thread (as in others perhaps, too, but not all of once, of course).
Maskerade...
Well, I am no opera fan and have never been to opera.
At first reading it was a rather weak book, I got some jokes, at second reading (this time in English), I got al lot more jokes and nevertheless it is still a flaw in the whitch series, I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed or actually like it on the same scale as I like Witches Abroad or Moving Pictures. There is not as much depth as I like in other (later or in some cases earlier) books but I like it on a smaller level.
Some Postings above there was mentioned, to dress up as Lady Esmerelda would bee out of charakter for Granny. And there were given some reasons why this not has to be the case. One though which occured for me while reading this postings was: Perhaps she is dressing up because "it has to go the right way", as Granny usually is firm on. If an evil duke sits in Lancre Castle, you not simply rush in to dispose him, you have to wait until the rightful heir of the throne turns up, if a whole city is bond to stories you not simply can abort the stories, you has to change them in the right way. So perhaps, it would also fit to say: If you want to go in the opera house and want to change what is going on so you have to do it the right way, this means dressing up in proper dressing an, well, go in the opera house.
Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rootet in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Whitch" - who else?
(But I don't want chewing up this theme again and wouldn't persist on this observations).
Another question, I don't know if this anywhere else already is mentioned, but it reminded me immediately by first reading it. I didn't find it at the annotation file on l-space, I don't even know, if this reference is known or popular enough in UK, although I know that Terry knows many things and popular culture also from outside UK:
Two details in the novel reminded me at the Olsen Gang, a danish criminal comedy. In one episode (The Olsen Gang Sees Red) there is a very popular scene in which the gang has to drill, hammer and bomb its way through the basement of the Royal Danish theatre. This because "the musicians hate the actors, the actors hate the singers, the singers hate the ballet dancers and all together hate the conductor" (or some similar statement) and therefore they have very thicks walls between their dressing rooms, recreation rooms and so on - through which each the gang has to break to get ther target (a ming vase).
The gang suceed in drilling, hammering and drilling in tact to the music of Elverhoi which has been played at this moment.
Now in maskerade there are two sequences which reminded me immediately at this episode. In one sequence Sarzella (?) says somethin very similar along the lines "the musicians hate the actors, actors hate the singers and all together hate the conductor".
And then the second sequence: Nanny explains that one of her son once had stolen the lead off the roof of the opera house - managing this while also hammering in tact to the music which has been played at this moment.
Coincidence?
Simply because this is such a obvious theme that you don't can pass it while writing a parody on opera?
Perhaps the saying "X hate the Y and all together hate the Z" is a common saying which everywhere will fit?
Or did Terry actually know this famous scene which is even mentioned in the English Wikipedia?
Maskerade...
Well, I am no opera fan and have never been to opera.
At first reading it was a rather weak book, I got some jokes, at second reading (this time in English), I got al lot more jokes and nevertheless it is still a flaw in the whitch series, I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed or actually like it on the same scale as I like Witches Abroad or Moving Pictures. There is not as much depth as I like in other (later or in some cases earlier) books but I like it on a smaller level.
Some Postings above there was mentioned, to dress up as Lady Esmerelda would bee out of charakter for Granny. And there were given some reasons why this not has to be the case. One though which occured for me while reading this postings was: Perhaps she is dressing up because "it has to go the right way", as Granny usually is firm on. If an evil duke sits in Lancre Castle, you not simply rush in to dispose him, you have to wait until the rightful heir of the throne turns up, if a whole city is bond to stories you not simply can abort the stories, you has to change them in the right way. So perhaps, it would also fit to say: If you want to go in the opera house and want to change what is going on so you have to do it the right way, this means dressing up in proper dressing an, well, go in the opera house.
Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rootet in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Whitch" - who else?
(But I don't want chewing up this theme again and wouldn't persist on this observations).
Another question, I don't know if this anywhere else already is mentioned, but it reminded me immediately by first reading it. I didn't find it at the annotation file on l-space, I don't even know, if this reference is known or popular enough in UK, although I know that Terry knows many things and popular culture also from outside UK:
Two details in the novel reminded me at the Olsen Gang, a danish criminal comedy. In one episode (The Olsen Gang Sees Red) there is a very popular scene in which the gang has to drill, hammer and bomb its way through the basement of the Royal Danish theatre. This because "the musicians hate the actors, the actors hate the singers, the singers hate the ballet dancers and all together hate the conductor" (or some similar statement) and therefore they have very thicks walls between their dressing rooms, recreation rooms and so on - through which each the gang has to break to get ther target (a ming vase).
The gang suceed in drilling, hammering and drilling in tact to the music of Elverhoi which has been played at this moment.
Now in maskerade there are two sequences which reminded me immediately at this episode. In one sequence Sarzella (?) says somethin very similar along the lines "the musicians hate the actors, actors hate the singers and all together hate the conductor".
And then the second sequence: Nanny explains that one of her son once had stolen the lead off the roof of the opera house - managing this while also hammering in tact to the music which has been played at this moment.
Coincidence?
Simply because this is such a obvious theme that you don't can pass it while writing a parody on opera?
Perhaps the saying "X hate the Y and all together hate the Z" is a common saying which everywhere will fit?
Or did Terry actually know this famous scene which is even mentioned in the English Wikipedia?
Hi, having had a cousin who worked in the Covent Garden Opera house for forty years, and I have often been found sitting in the stage door area for the last thirty, I can quite happily confirm that: yes,
the musicians really can hate the actors (or walk on parts)
the actors (walk on parts) really can hate the singers
if the band/musicians take against the conductor you can get a night of music you would certainly have wanted to miss!
I have heard a recording of an opera,which shall go nameless for it's own good, where there was a lot of 'fueding' backstage and believe me it WAS bad! I would have wanted my money back had I been in the audience.
Oh, ... and the backstage technicians hate Everybody!
or as it's known... a good night out for everyone.
Sir pTerry probably had this story related to him.
the musicians really can hate the actors (or walk on parts)
the actors (walk on parts) really can hate the singers
if the band/musicians take against the conductor you can get a night of music you would certainly have wanted to miss!
I have heard a recording of an opera,which shall go nameless for it's own good, where there was a lot of 'fueding' backstage and believe me it WAS bad! I would have wanted my money back had I been in the audience.
Oh, ... and the backstage technicians hate Everybody!
or as it's known... a good night out for everyone.
Sir pTerry probably had this story related to him.
There are different kinds of depth. Maskerade is about masks, layers of personality. Almost everyone in it is in disguise one way or another, wearing masks either metaphorical or physical. Nanny Ogg wore the mask of "A Lancre Witch". Agnes originally chose the mask of Perdita, which took on a life of its own; she taught herself to disguise where her voice was coming from. Later Agnes is required to disguise herself behind another. I think every major character is disguised somehow, even when they are as obvious as Nobby and Colon. Nanny gets a peek behind Granny's masks when she learns some things about Granny that she hadn't known even after sixty-odd years of friendship. The opera house itself is masked by a false front.
I agree, that is part of her motive for doing it. Earlier, in Equal Rites, Granny taught Esk that the hat is the job, in a way. You dress for the part. However, there is a side of Granny that she doesn't express much, that she keeps masked. She really likes fine clothing. In Wyrd Sisters Granny is tempted to try on the crown. In Witches Abroad, Granny and Nanny "borrow" the correct clothing for the event and very briefly act out upper-class manners. When she has a good reason to dress up, she enjoys it, even if she has to pretend to herself that she's just making good use of second-hand clothing that happens to have a red lining. (I think that was in Equal Rites.)
I agree; I think that's another side that Granny doesn't admit to very often.
Sir Terry has said that he always looks for at least three examples of anything he uses so as to be sure it's a common-enough idea, so I believe there may be at least two other examples for any allusion. That doesn't mean that he didn't refer to the Olsen Gang story. The sequence from the Olsen Gang line is very close. I think that a series of statements like that is fairly common in humor. I remember something like that from a comic song of the 1960s by Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week, and another one by the Kingston Trio The Merry Minuet (better known as They're Rioting in Africa ).
The second sequence, making noise in time to the music, may also be related to the Olsen Gang story. The fact that there are two possible allusions in the same book makes both of them more convincing to me. The extra-thick walls could be related to the extremely thick wall between Agnes's side of the room and Christine's side of the room.
I agree, that is part of her motive for doing it. Earlier, in Equal Rites, Granny taught Esk that the hat is the job, in a way. You dress for the part. However, there is a side of Granny that she doesn't express much, that she keeps masked. She really likes fine clothing. In Wyrd Sisters Granny is tempted to try on the crown. In Witches Abroad, Granny and Nanny "borrow" the correct clothing for the event and very briefly act out upper-class manners. When she has a good reason to dress up, she enjoys it, even if she has to pretend to herself that she's just making good use of second-hand clothing that happens to have a red lining. (I think that was in Equal Rites.)
RolandItwasntmyfault said:
Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rooted in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Witch" - who else?
Sir Terry has said that he always looks for at least three examples of anything he uses so as to be sure it's a common-enough idea, so I believe there may be at least two other examples for any allusion. That doesn't mean that he didn't refer to the Olsen Gang story. The sequence from the Olsen Gang line is very close. I think that a series of statements like that is fairly common in humor. I remember something like that from a comic song of the 1960s by Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week, and another one by the Kingston Trio The Merry Minuet (better known as They're Rioting in Africa ).
The second sequence, making noise in time to the music, may also be related to the Olsen Gang story. The fact that there are two possible allusions in the same book makes both of them more convincing to me. The extra-thick walls could be related to the extremely thick wall between Agnes's side of the room and Christine's side of the room.
There are different kinds of depth. Maskerade is about masks, layers of personality. Almost everyone in it is in disguise one way or another, wearing masks either metaphorical or physical. Nanny Ogg wore the mask of "A Lancre Witch". Agnes originally chose the mask of Perdita, which took on a life of its own; she taught herself to disguise where her voice was coming from. Later Agnes is required to disguise herself behind another. I think every major character is disguised somehow, even when they are as obvious as Nobby and Colon. Nanny gets a peek behind Granny's masks when she learns some things about Granny that she hadn't known even after sixty-odd years of friendship. The opera house itself is masked by a false front.
I agree, that is part of her motive for doing it. Earlier, in Equal Rites, Granny taught Esk that the hat is the job, in a way. You dress for the part. However, there is a side of Granny that she doesn't express much, that she keeps masked. She really likes fine clothing. In Wyrd Sisters Granny is tempted to try on the crown. In Witches Abroad, Granny and Nanny "borrow" the correct clothing for the event and very briefly act out upper-class manners. When she has a good reason to dress up, she enjoys it, even if she has to pretend to herself that she's just making good use of second-hand clothing that happens to have a red lining. (I think that was in Equal Rites.)
I agree; I think that's another side that Granny doesn't admit to very often.
Sir Terry has said that he always looks for at least three examples of anything he uses so as to be sure it's a common-enough idea, so I believe there may be at least two other examples for any allusion. That doesn't mean that he didn't refer to the Olsen Gang story. The sequence from the Olsen Gang line is very close. I think that a series of statements like that is fairly common in humor. I remember something like that from a comic song of the 1960s by Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week, and another one by the Kingston Trio The Merry Minuet (sometimes known as They're Rioting in Africa).
The second sequence, making noise in time to the music, may also be related to the Olsen Gang story. The fact that there are two possible allusions in the same book makes both of them more convincing to me. The extra-thick walls could be related to the extremely thick wall between Agnes's side of the room and Christine's side of the room.
I agree, that is part of her motive for doing it. Earlier, in Equal Rites, Granny taught Esk that the hat is the job, in a way. You dress for the part. However, there is a side of Granny that she doesn't express much, that she keeps masked. She really likes fine clothing. In Wyrd Sisters Granny is tempted to try on the crown. In Witches Abroad, Granny and Nanny "borrow" the correct clothing for the event and very briefly act out upper-class manners. When she has a good reason to dress up, she enjoys it, even if she has to pretend to herself that she's just making good use of second-hand clothing that happens to have a red lining. (I think that was in Equal Rites.)
RolandItwasntmyfault said:
Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rooted in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Witch" - who else?
Sir Terry has said that he always looks for at least three examples of anything he uses so as to be sure it's a common-enough idea, so I believe there may be at least two other examples for any allusion. That doesn't mean that he didn't refer to the Olsen Gang story. The sequence from the Olsen Gang line is very close. I think that a series of statements like that is fairly common in humor. I remember something like that from a comic song of the 1960s by Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week, and another one by the Kingston Trio The Merry Minuet (sometimes known as They're Rioting in Africa).
The second sequence, making noise in time to the music, may also be related to the Olsen Gang story. The fact that there are two possible allusions in the same book makes both of them more convincing to me. The extra-thick walls could be related to the extremely thick wall between Agnes's side of the room and Christine's side of the room.
In my comparision to Witches Abroad and Moving Pictures I meant to say that this book is one of the lighthearted ones and on this level it lacks the kind of depths I like in Small God or Monstrous Regiment for example.
Though I have to confess that the whole-book-and-everyone-is-disguising-in-it hasn't occured to me in this whole brightness until I read here in this forum. Interesting aspect, yes. It really well would fit in about a worl of shine and glamour and illusions which at the core is nothing more than, well, illusions.
Hm, okay, I havn't seen this in Granny yet, to actually enjoy to dressing up (but only if necessary, important point, I think), but yes, why not?
I agree; I think that's another side that Granny doesn't admit to very often.
Yes. I think she never would admit it directly, she always would deny it.
"Witches have no leaders", but she secretly also sees herself as "the leader whitches not have".
Althoug I wonder if this already applies to this point in the DW/Witches-timeline?
Could you say Granny already is the undisputed mighiest witch or even Lancre Witch?
Okay, in Wyrd Sisters and Lords and Ladies she did two things which was considered masterpieces, but the really big masterpiece will come in Carpe Jugulum until she in the Tiffany books is the undisputed "hag of hags" (jealously eyed, yes, but undisputed). Hm, I see, this might lead away from the theme of this thread, so please see it as mere suggestion to a possible further discussion about Granny's development in a better fitting thread somewhere else.
Together with Meerkat's posting (yeah, some clichés always seems to be true
):
Ah, yes, the thick walls also were very familiar to me and also would fit in.
And Yes, I would'nt be amazed when this simply are two statements/scenarios which are very common or even itself suggesting in humorous writing (especially about opera).
My first though on this descriptions hes been "This is form Olsen Gang!" anyway. If Terry knows about Olsen Gang and especcially this famous scene we would only know if he himself would tell us.
Though I have to confess that the whole-book-and-everyone-is-disguising-in-it hasn't occured to me in this whole brightness until I read here in this forum. Interesting aspect, yes. It really well would fit in about a worl of shine and glamour and illusions which at the core is nothing more than, well, illusions.
Hm, okay, I havn't seen this in Granny yet, to actually enjoy to dressing up (but only if necessary, important point, I think), but yes, why not?
=Tamar said:
RolandItwasntmyfault said:
Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rooted in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Witch" - who else?
"Witches have no leaders", but she secretly also sees herself as "the leader whitches not have".
Althoug I wonder if this already applies to this point in the DW/Witches-timeline?
Could you say Granny already is the undisputed mighiest witch or even Lancre Witch?
Okay, in Wyrd Sisters and Lords and Ladies she did two things which was considered masterpieces, but the really big masterpiece will come in Carpe Jugulum until she in the Tiffany books is the undisputed "hag of hags" (jealously eyed, yes, but undisputed). Hm, I see, this might lead away from the theme of this thread, so please see it as mere suggestion to a possible further discussion about Granny's development in a better fitting thread somewhere else.
Together with Meerkat's posting (yeah, some clichés always seems to be true
):Ah, yes, the thick walls also were very familiar to me and also would fit in.
And Yes, I would'nt be amazed when this simply are two statements/scenarios which are very common or even itself suggesting in humorous writing (especially about opera).
My first though on this descriptions hes been "This is form Olsen Gang!" anyway. If Terry knows about Olsen Gang and especcially this famous scene we would only know if he himself would tell us.
Granny's "borrowing" of clothes isn't literal--it's an extension of her general interest in experiencing narratives that are not her own. Her interest in dressing up and assuming disguises is the same impulse that inspires her to "borrow" the minds of bees, hawks and other animals; she wants to experience life as something other than the all-powerful witch she is. It's the only relief she gets from her responsibilities of guarding the 'edges."
In Witches Abroad it's literal. Granny and Nanny hypnotize two rich women and take their dresses to wear to the ball. I assume they left those dresses behind when they left, which is why I wrote "borrow" instead of "steal".
Otherwise, yes, it's part of her desire to experience parts of life that she doesn't normally get to play with.
Otherwise, yes, it's part of her desire to experience parts of life that she doesn't normally get to play with.
Re: Granny *Spoilers* CJ, LAL, WA, ER, Maskerade
In Lords and Ladies Granny has glimpses of other possible lives she might have had. I'm not sure whether that relieves her of the need or makes her want to try out more roles. She uses a version of the doddering old lady role in Carpe Jugulum, then plays herself to extremes (with the teacup) later. Granny has come a long way from the old lady in Equal Rites who didn't understand plays.
In Lords and Ladies Granny has glimpses of other possible lives she might have had. I'm not sure whether that relieves her of the need or makes her want to try out more roles. She uses a version of the doddering old lady role in Carpe Jugulum, then plays herself to extremes (with the teacup) later. Granny has come a long way from the old lady in Equal Rites who didn't understand plays.
I've worked in light opera and music performance for years, so I really enjoyed "Maskerade". I do, however, have to take some exception to Perdita's audition -- an audition normally takes place in a separate (and well-lit) room with a piano, not on stage with the lights glaring at you. But that's a minor nitpick.
After WA, M!!!!! is my favourite witches book. I love the luncheon scene, the scenes with Mr Goatberger the publisher, and of course the DEATH scenes, among others.
But that's a minor nitpick.After WA, M!!!!! is my favourite witches book. I love the luncheon scene, the scenes with Mr Goatberger the publisher, and of course the DEATH scenes, among others.
The thing that bothered me the most about the book, was that it seemed to take a sharp turn into musical theatre. I love opera, even the more modern opera such as that written by Philip Glass. But I'm not a fan of musical theatre. I know that Terry was playing with the idea of Walter being the writer of various modern theatre pieces. He was obviously likening Walter as being Michael Crawford being the first Phantom in Phantom of the Opera (as well as being Frank Spencer in Some Mothers Do 'Av 'em)".
I once went to see Phantom of the Opera with a friend who, although she was a Pratchett fan, had never read Maskerade. I laughed out loud at parts that weren't funny, unless you had read Maskerade.
I once went to see Phantom of the Opera with a friend who, although she was a Pratchett fan, had never read Maskerade. I laughed out loud at parts that weren't funny, unless you had read Maskerade.
Tony, Did Maskerade bother you because it portrayed opera as "something that doesn't make money, but what you spend money on"? And that musical theatre makes more money than opera does? It's true, though (unfortunately). The Mikado or The Phantom of the Opera makes more money than, say, Zauberflöte or Aida.
I like both art forms, but for different reasons. I like opera more -- Aida, for instance, is infinitely more profound than, say, The Mikado -- but then, G&S isn't trying to be profound.
Which parts of Phantom made you laugh? Just wondering.
I like both art forms, but for different reasons. I like opera more -- Aida, for instance, is infinitely more profound than, say, The Mikado -- but then, G&S isn't trying to be profound.
Which parts of Phantom made you laugh? Just wondering.
In the book, Nanny discovered a whole bunch of musical pieces that Walter/The Ghost had been writing. These were clearly the type of Lloyd Webber stuff, which I really dislike musically, despite the popularity of it. I'm not interested in whether it makes money or not - I'm interested in what I like. I'm also not at all fond of G&S either.
I really can't remember what parts of Phantom made me laugh - it was a long time ago. But it would have been the bits that Terry had satorised that I hadn't been aware of until watching Phantom.
I really can't remember what parts of Phantom made me laugh - it was a long time ago. But it would have been the bits that Terry had satorised that I hadn't been aware of until watching Phantom.