SPOILERS Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

[Molokov]

I enjoyed it as well and found the first hundred pages or so reminiscent of his earlier works (that may be to do with the amount of footnotes and references to old characters and places, of course). I did think some of his satirical messages to be unusually heavy-handed though, in a 'hits you in the face and batters it over your head' type of way, rather than with the usual subtlety that I associate with his work.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Penfold. The subtlety is gone - most plot points and foreshadowing and moralising are now blunt and hitting you over the head with a large hammer (to continue the metaphor).

Terry's stories are great, and always have been. I think the plot lines and story in all of his books to be amazing, including Snuff, Dodger and Raising Steam.

But for those three, there seems to be a distinct change in style to those that came before. The prose is far more wandering and ambling, with descriptions of events and scenes changing in the middle of a paragraph as you follow a character's internal monologue. At the start of the monologue you're in one place, and by the end of the long paragraph full of run-on stream-of-thought sentences, it's several hours later and many things have happened which were only vaguely mentioned in passing. A lot of the lovely little scenes full of snappy dialogue are missing. I did spot a few of those in Raising Steam and felt all nostalgic about them, but they were scattered and far between.

I suppose considering the time period over which Raising Steam takes place (much of a year), the narrative move-the-story-along sections are more necessary than in earlier stories which took place over the course of a few days, but I still miss the lively character interactions we used to get.

I also felt that we didn't /truly/ get inside Moist's head in Raising Steam, even though he was the point of view character for most of the book. Terry seems to be describing what Moist is thinking and feeling in a detached way, rather than us living the story through Moist's thoughts and feelings.

I don't know, it just seemed... different, and not truly Discworld.

I did still enjoy the storyline, the action, and the various jokes and footnotes - quite a few chuckles were had - but it's (in my opinion) a good point at which to leave Discworld to rest.

I don't have a similar problem with The Long Earth and The Long War, mainly because they are completely different animals, and Stephen Baxter's influence is quite strong on the writing style there. Those books can be slow, meandering stories because they're more about exploring an idea to its fullest extent than telling a story with a beginning, middle and end.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

No rest for the wicked though Molokov, next one is a Tiffany one and it's being written now with more Discworld to follow.

 

[Slantaholic]

Molokov wrote:
The subtlety is gone - most plot points and foreshadowing and moralising are now blunt and hitting you over the head with a large hammer (to continue the metaphor).
The prose is far more wandering and ambling, with descriptions of events and scenes changing in the middle of a paragraph as you follow a character's internal monologue.
A lot of the lovely little scenes full of snappy dialogue are missing.

Thank you for raising several points. I didn't like the book either. It's not there with my least favs, like TCOM, E!, TLC, WoP, etc. - it's over there in the purple prose category with Snuff and ISWM.

 

[=Tamar]

Terry's stories are great, and always have been. I think the plot lines and story in all of his books to be amazing, including Snuff, Dodger and Raising Steam.

But for those three, there seems to be a distinct change in style to those that came before. The prose is far more wandering and ambling, with descriptions of events and scenes changing in the middle of a paragraph as you follow a character's internal monologue. At the start of the monologue you're in one place, and by the end of the long paragraph full of run-on stream-of-thought sentences, it's several hours later and many things have happened which were only vaguely mentioned in passing.

I haven't gone through it in great detail yet, but it seemed to me that in some places, sentences were kept in the main text that might have been intended to be footnotes. When I get the paperback some time in the next year or so, I may try marking what seem to be footnotes to see how much difference it makes.

A lot of the lovely little scenes full of snappy dialogue are missing. I did spot a few of those in Raising Steam and felt all nostalgic about them, but they were scattered and far between.
[snip]
I also felt that we didn't /truly/ get inside Moist's head in Raising Steam, even though he was the point of view character for most of the book. Terry seems to be describing what Moist is thinking and feeling in a detached way, rather than us living the story through Moist's thoughts and feelings.

You may be right. I think there may be something different about the sentence structure. Dictating the story can't be blamed since Moist's earlier adventures were also dictated and they had the occasional direct representation of Moist's thoughts, as though we were overhearing them telepathically. In RS, as you said, we seem to be being told about them more often.

I don't have a similar problem with The Long Earth and The Long War, mainly because they are completely different animals, and Stephen Baxter's influence is quite strong on the writing style there. Those books can be slow, meandering stories because they're more about exploring an idea to its fullest extent than telling a story with a beginning, middle and end.

I wonder whether it's that influence, or whether it has more to do with having a different editor. I did notice that RS had none of the casual typographical errors that I'd grown almost accustomed to seeing. Maybe the editor also removed the footnotes and Sir Terry didn't argue for most of them. He did say once that he had to choose his battles with editors so he could fight harder for the important word choices. (Try comparing a UK and US edition word-by-word sometime. I did it with The Truth; it was, um, most illuminating.)

 

[TheAnts]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Penfold. The subtlety is gone - most plot points and foreshadowing and moralising are now blunt and hitting you over the head with a large hammer (to continue the metaphor).

That's it. It's got well down from the Large Hammer stage, but it reads as if it hasn't gone right down through the tiny hammer, sandpaper and fine polishing cloth stages.

I don't know when I first started noticing that some joins in the text weren't quite finished. I don't particularly associate this with Snuff, which I like, but maybe it's something you only notice on a first reading. It's much more marked in RS.

He's also got more didactic, particualry in I Shall Wear Midnight.

 

[TheAnts]

(Try comparing a UK and US edition word-by-word sometime. I did it with The Truth; it was, um, most illuminating.)

Thank you for that tip, The Truth is very much about the local newspaper /family magazine style of UK publication, it would be interesting to see how any changes affected that feeling.

 

[Slantaholic]

Can we have some TT quotes then? Is it one word changes, or are there different meanings between characters implied? Any paragraphs inserted (especially in the Slant, Pin and Tulip scenes)?

 

[=Tamar]

Can we have some TT quotes then? Is it one word changes, or are there different meanings between characters implied? Any paragraphs inserted (especially in the Slant, Pin and Tulip scenes)?

A little of everything, and more. Someone made what seemed like random changes to Otto's accent, changing which words were affected, to no apparent purpose except to prove they were changing something. One scene was more or less complete but elements were rearranged. One scene had a one-word line removed that changed a character.
I listed them once (on a different hard drive) - there were pages of changes.

A random Otto change:
UK h/c p.101: "Light in all its forms is mine passion....everybody smile!"
US h/c p.98: "Light in all itz forms is mine passion....everybody zmile!"

I mean, what was the point of those changes?

A more substantive, yet subtle, change: William is finishing his news letter with a note that in Ankh-Morpork anyone calling a dwarf "short stuff" would be killed.
UK h/c p.10: "He always liked to finish his letters on a happy note."
US h/c p.5: "He always liked to finish his letters on a happier note."

In the UK version, William genuinely thinks it is funny that a person from out of town who uses a pejorative term to a dwarf is killed.
In the US version, William thinks it's a slightly funnier story than the rest of his news, but not necessary much happier. William knows it's a rough joke, but he also knows his audience will appreciate it and it's the lightest thing he's managed to find to put in.

One that is quoted a lot:
UK h/c p.25: "My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!"
US h/c p.20: "My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass! Who's been pinching my beer?"

Mr. Scrope is President of the:
UK h/c p.209: "Guild of Cobblers and Leatherworkers"
US h/d p.210: "Guild of Shoemakers and Leatherworkers"
First, a cobbler is a repairman, not a maker of new shoes. Second, Vimes a few sentences later says he never mentioned shoes. Mr. Scrope makes, or possibly repairs, "whips...and little jiggly things." Furthermore, Mr. Scrope's pretensions to the position of Patrician are ultimately shown to be a load of old cobblers, an implied joke that is lost by the change.

The scene that was noticeably revised described William's experience at Hugglestones.
UK h/c p.26: "...keenness was highly prized at Hugglestones, if only because actual achievement was so rare. The staff at Hugglestones believed that in sufficient quantities 'being keen' could take the place of lesser attributes like intelligence, foresight, and training."
Farther down the page:
"...only vaguely remember. Afterwards, his father"

US h/c p.21: "...keenness was highly prized at Hugglestones, if only because actual achievement was so rare."
Farther down the page:
"...only vaguely remember. Those who could recall William had a hazy picture of someone always arriving just too late at some huge and painful collision of bodies. A keen boy, they decided. The staff at Hugglestones prized keenness, believing that in sufficient quantities 'being keen' could take the place of lesser attributes like intelligence, foresight, and training. Afterwards, his father"

About Lord de Worde:
UK h/c p.285: "He doesn't really believe they can touch him, and if they do he'll just shout until they go away."
US h/c p.289: "He really believes they can't touch him, and that if they do he can just shout until they go away."
That changes the degree of likelihood that Lord de Worde is correct in his belief. In the UK version, they _will_ go away (expressed as true in William's experience). In the US version, Lord de Worde _believes_ they will go away. That allows for the possibility that Lord de Worde might be wrong in his belief.

On the same pages:
UK h/c p.285: "they never take their gloves off."
US h/c p.289: "they never take _their_ gloves off."
In the UK non-italicized version, they might be doing something themselves. In the US italicized version, there is a hint that although the men referred to don't take their own gloves off, they give orders that cause other men to take their gloves off, i.e., commit violence.

UK h/c p.287-288: "YOU MAY BE LEADING QUITE A DIFFERENT LIFE."
"Good."
Death patted Mr Tulip on the shoulder
US h/c p.291: "YOU MAY BE LEADING QUITE A DIFFERENT LIFE."
Death patted Mr Tulip on the shoulder

Do you see the difference? No acceptance ("Good.") from Mr Tulip.
No hint that he just considered that his behavior might be different (good).
The hint of redemption is lost.

=Tamar

 

[Tonyblack]

Interesting. I wonder if the change from Cobblers to Shoemakers was due to cobblers having a second meaning in the UK. Cobblers is Cockney Rhyming Slang = Cobbler's awl's = balls.

This tends to make the word "cobblers" have a somewhat comic meaning over here and one that has been exploited by comedians for years.

 

[The Mad Collector]

Great comparison work there Tamar, very interesting. Truly two countries divided by a common language

 

[=Tamar]

Interesting. I wonder if the change from Cobblers to Shoemakers was due to cobblers having a second meaning in the UK. Cobblers is Cockney Rhyming Slang = Cobbler's awl's = balls.

This tends to make the word "cobblers" have a somewhat comic meaning over here and one that has been exploited by comedians for years.

I doubt it simply because the US editor almost certainly didn't know that, even if they'd read the phrase "a load of old cobbler's" - we don't have rhyming slang. In the US, "cobbler" brings to mind either someone mending shoes or a dish of baked fruit with a topping of sweetened crumbs. I suspect that the editor didn't recognize the word and changed it to something more familiar which not only lost the joke, it made Vimes's later statement pointless.

 

[=Tamar]

Great comparison work there Tamar, very interesting. Truly two countries divided by a common language

Same language, different editor, and one with a tin ear for nuance.

 

[Slantaholic]

Thank you for the long list, Tamar.

 

[The Mad Collector]

Great comparison work there Tamar, very interesting. Truly two countries divided by a common language

Same language, different editor, and one with a tin ear for nuance.

I've taught English in both countries, believe me it's not the same language

 

[Tiffany]

I enjoyed the book. I do like TP's witch books best though.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

I enjoyed the book. I do like TP's witch books best though.

So you won't want to know about the new Tiffany book that Terry is writing then.

 

[Tiffany]

I enjoyed the book. I do like TP's witch books best though.

So you won't want to know about the new Tiffany book that Terry is writing then.

Wow! Yes, I do, very muchly. When will that be out, do you know?

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

It's what he told me when I was down for Hogwatch in Wincanton, so it will be a year at the very least! I should think.

 

[=Tamar]

It's what he told me when I was down for Hogwatch in Wincanton, so it will be a year at the very least! I should think.

Allowing 6 months to a year to write it and 6 months to edit it, adding the usual delays, I'd guess two years to see print in the USA.

 

[raisindot]

[Spoilers ahead]


Okay, thanks to Bouncy's generosity, I've finished the book.

I could write pages on this, but I think what I conclude is that this is what we're going to have to expect the future of Pterry's books to be like. Guess what: his writing style IS influenced by his Alzheimer's; it has been at least since Unseen Academicals. I've said this both here and in reviews of UA, Snuff and Dodger and I say it here. What this reflects is a dictated style that often leads of rambling long paragraphs and the replacement of quick dialogue with long-winded speeches. As someone who has known many people with Alzheimer's, some of whom were writers, this is a completely consistent was for a writer who can longer write economically (or even write themselves on paper or a computer) to write.

Overall, I liked Raising Steam much more than Snuff. Perhaps because I came into with far-lowered expectations after the huge disappointment of Snuff. A lot of this I think in its guilty pleasures: Seeing Pterry 'flesh out' favorite (and not favorite) characters like Harry King, the Low King, Albert Albrechtson, even Drumknott. Having Pterry add new geography, towns, and peoples to the Discworld, particularly to the cities of the Sto Plains and the mountains, is also a pleasure. Showing more of the married relationship between Moist and Adorabelle (with implied sex, even, although why don't they have children after probably five or more years of marriage?) and his turning of Effie King into something more than a aristocrat wanna-be are also admirable. The plot itself, while not highly dramatically gripping (let's face it; the train battles were simply the riverboat ride of Snuff on rails), was, particularly near the end, compelling.

But, in spite of all this, it's very hard to read this and see the gigantic decline in Pterry's ability to write in the spare, economic, and funny style of his greatest books. At this best, Pterry made every word count. Like the best works of P.G. Wodehouse, nearly every non-dialogue phrase was a pearl of wit. Dialogue, rather than narration, moved scenes forward. Footnotes were mostly funny. And few things were rarely spelled out--you often had to infer what was going on by all the dialogue clues.

That era is gone. Pterry now overwrites nearly everything. I almost gave up after the first 20 pages or so, because of this endless exposition where he was trying to explain everything and provide unneeded backstory. The occasional dialogue that occurred wasn't even dialogue--it was one long speech, followed by more long speeches, followed by more exposition.

And--most regrettably--there is no longer humor. Instead of the crackling dialogue that not only made you laugh but helped to "flesh out" character types, the speeches and rare dialogues changes are overburdened with slang, idioms and puns, as it much of the narration. Over and over Pterry repeats phrases in sentences, trying to wrench a laugh where it doesn't exist.

Unfortunately, not only is this not funny, but it also reduces most of the characters to a level of sameness. At one time, Moist's use of words was his greatest strength--here, he's a straight man most of the time. His dialogue is barely different than Vimes, which differs not at all from his long-winded dialogue of Snuff. Again and again, characters have to remind Moist that he is Moist von Lipvig, and what that means. It's a terrible narrative weakness--forced memes--and there's very little that Moist actually says that reminds us of the classic Moist of Going Postal (or the best parts of Making Money).

The other characters fair little better. Dick Simnell(sp.) just seems like a tinkerer version of Dodger. Pterry doesn't seem to know what to do with him--he sings with one note. While it's great to see Harry King have a prominent role, the tough pragmatist of The Truth and Making Money becomes a soppy, sentimental creampuff here.

Vetinari is nearly completely unrecognizable. The coolest man on the DW now gets furious over little things like crosswords? And all of his understated menace has been replaced by obvious menace. How many times does he have to repeat that he's a tyrant or that he can torture people? The old Vetinari never had to do this--one arched eyebrow was all you needed to know.

And the talking golem horse? Weren't we led to understand in Making Money that these golems had no chems and therefore no intelligence or free will? Yet, now the golem horse can not only talk, but it it can sarcastic as well. Then doesn't that make keeping the 5,000 golems underground (except when they're need as bridge supports) a crime against sentient beings?

And that he just brings in characters for the hell of it--none of the wizards have any useful role here, and bringing in Lu Tze for a cameo--is just plain pandering. I'm surprised Granny Weatherwax and Susan didn't have a cameo (although I'm betting that the woman applying for a job as an interpreter who spoke every single languange might have been her).

The only characters who seem to be believable are the dwarfs, perhaps because we haven't see much of them in recent books. But now all the trolls seem to have ice packs on their foreheads--how come Bluejohn doesn't use the "dems and deres" like Detritus?

I think what's most annoying, in spite of the bloodshed in the book, is the general polyannish nature of most of it. Except for the attacks and the occasional boiler blowout, everything bounces merrily along. Pterry is trying to hard to create--dare I say it--a politically correct world that says that every species is smart and has its own virtues and Nutt-like "worth"--makes the book incredibly cloying, reading more like a young adult book teaching a lesson on tolerance than an adult Discworld book.

Pterry is trying. Trying very hard to continue to writing when his illness is clearly affecting his ability to write with the economy and sharpness of his best work. But, as I've said in the reviews of his last few novels, he's not getting edited properly. The huge number of typos, the prevelance of sloppy writing, and the lack of a firm hand at the editor's control is taking its toll on his last works. Obviously, one can't expect an author to keep the perfection after 40 books, and many of the greatest writers went into a tailspin in their latter years (just look at all 1950s work of WIlliam Faulker, or contemporary authors like America's Tony Hillerman for examples). Maybe even if he wasn't afflicted by Alzheimer's Pterry's work would have declined in quality. Who knows?

It's fair to game to criticize the work of any author, even those we love. Pterry chooses to publish still, and he knows that he's going to be lambasted by readers and critics, even those who have are his most ardent (pun) admirers. He's still going to sell millions of copies of Raising Steam, and what any of us here or any Amazon critics say isn't going to affect sales. If you're a Pterry fan, you'll read it.

But, after reading Raising Steam, especially so soon after re-reading some of the classic DW books, it's sad to see that this is what we have to look forward to. Again, it's not a terrible book, but compared to his greatest works, it's a pale shadow.