SPOILERS Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
The Mad Collector said:
It's 'explained' in the footnote
The song on Roundworld being Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner. Just say the original phrase out loud
It often helps with Terry's puns to say them rather than just read them
The song on Roundworld being Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner. Just say the original phrase out loud
It often helps with Terry's puns to say them rather than just read them
I am a native English-speaker and I have a non-rhotic accent, as does Sir Terry. Nevertheless, although my own dialect has some elements in common with his, it is not identical, as near as I can tell from the way he writes linguistic jokes. Regarding this particular joke: I don't pronounce "because" to rhyme with "horse", so I had to work to get the joke.
:think: I finished reading the book a few days ago, and I have to admit that I have mixed feelings about it.
On the one hand, the story's development was well-paced, with Ned SImnel's son's tinkering leading to Harry snapping up the first application of the train, the initial crowds and Vetinari's suspicion, the dwarf grags getting desperate, the railway expansion, the delver attacks, the coup, the pressure to apply the ambitious Uberwald line, and the long struggle to get the Low King back home for a counter-coup with the new train. On that note, I particularly liked the misdirection, gambits, and occasional improvised moments in the last sequence especially. It was also fascinating to get a look at the train development and politics, watch characters react to it, and see the characters try to juggle problems and predictions among themselves.
There were a few moments of good humour, and a few more smile-inducing moments. Introducing trains to Discworld introduces a lot of potential, and it's used to good effect, especially the early scenes depicting Iron Girder capturing the public imagination. The goblin society, including the division between Morporkian and Quirmian goblins, was fun to read about, and some characters like Albrechtson, the Low King, the golem horse, the Marquis, Ardent, Of the Twilight the Darkness, and Harry King, were interesting to see as they staked positions and interacted with each other. Overall, it's not a book I regret reading.
On the other hand, it has several flaws which range from merely being below Terry's usual standard to being almost story-wrecking. There's too much telling over showing, too much summarizing, too many tangents and scenes that come out of nowhere and then vanish never to be mentioned again, and (so it seems) too much jumping around from perspective to perspective and scene to scene, even for a Discworld book. The result is a strange sense of distance and alienation where before I would have been fully immersed in the story and cast. Many interesting plot threads with dramatic conflicts are either resolved too quickly or undermined, which hurts the climax especially as it takes a good chunk of any suspense with it. Unfortunately, a lot of the humour also seems to be missing; I certainly laughed much less frequently than I did with earlier books, even Thud!, and smiles were also few and far between. Frequently, I found myself asking whether certain passages would have been rejected if submitted to a publisher by a newcomer.
Moreover, it's like raisindot says: the overall style is straying away from Discworld's usual wit and flair, and everything seems too Pollyannaish and idealistic. As a result, and in spite of the darker moments, it never convinced me that any major resistance was going to be offered by the antagonists that the protagonists weren't going to bat aside with ease or luck out of (such as the gnomes arriving to help with the water). It feels too pedestrian. Lastly, a good chunk of the cast seem either flat (Simnel, regrettably, becomes a recurring one-note with no particularly compelling characteristics beyond his backstory) or wildly all over the place (Harry King is a shrewd business tough one moment, an openly emotional nice guy the next, which is especially jarring when he does it in front of Moist, of all people).
:| There's a good, top-notch Discworld book in there trying to get out, but it hasn't fully succeeded because the flaws too often defuse the (still nicely entertaining) enjoyments. Overall, I'd give it a 6 or a 7 out of 10: above average, but definitely not outstanding.
On the one hand, the story's development was well-paced, with Ned SImnel's son's tinkering leading to Harry snapping up the first application of the train, the initial crowds and Vetinari's suspicion, the dwarf grags getting desperate, the railway expansion, the delver attacks, the coup, the pressure to apply the ambitious Uberwald line, and the long struggle to get the Low King back home for a counter-coup with the new train. On that note, I particularly liked the misdirection, gambits, and occasional improvised moments in the last sequence especially. It was also fascinating to get a look at the train development and politics, watch characters react to it, and see the characters try to juggle problems and predictions among themselves.There were a few moments of good humour, and a few more smile-inducing moments. Introducing trains to Discworld introduces a lot of potential, and it's used to good effect, especially the early scenes depicting Iron Girder capturing the public imagination. The goblin society, including the division between Morporkian and Quirmian goblins, was fun to read about, and some characters like Albrechtson, the Low King, the golem horse, the Marquis, Ardent, Of the Twilight the Darkness, and Harry King, were interesting to see as they staked positions and interacted with each other. Overall, it's not a book I regret reading.
On the other hand, it has several flaws which range from merely being below Terry's usual standard to being almost story-wrecking. There's too much telling over showing, too much summarizing, too many tangents and scenes that come out of nowhere and then vanish never to be mentioned again, and (so it seems) too much jumping around from perspective to perspective and scene to scene, even for a Discworld book. The result is a strange sense of distance and alienation where before I would have been fully immersed in the story and cast. Many interesting plot threads with dramatic conflicts are either resolved too quickly or undermined, which hurts the climax especially as it takes a good chunk of any suspense with it. Unfortunately, a lot of the humour also seems to be missing; I certainly laughed much less frequently than I did with earlier books, even Thud!, and smiles were also few and far between. Frequently, I found myself asking whether certain passages would have been rejected if submitted to a publisher by a newcomer.Moreover, it's like raisindot says: the overall style is straying away from Discworld's usual wit and flair, and everything seems too Pollyannaish and idealistic. As a result, and in spite of the darker moments, it never convinced me that any major resistance was going to be offered by the antagonists that the protagonists weren't going to bat aside with ease or luck out of (such as the gnomes arriving to help with the water). It feels too pedestrian. Lastly, a good chunk of the cast seem either flat (Simnel, regrettably, becomes a recurring one-note with no particularly compelling characteristics beyond his backstory) or wildly all over the place (Harry King is a shrewd business tough one moment, an openly emotional nice guy the next, which is especially jarring when he does it in front of Moist, of all people).
:| There's a good, top-notch Discworld book in there trying to get out, but it hasn't fully succeeded because the flaws too often defuse the (still nicely entertaining) enjoyments. Overall, I'd give it a 6 or a 7 out of 10: above average, but definitely not outstanding.
Got the chance to read/listen to this finally. Enjoyed it quite a bit. Found alot of fascinating character moments. love the thread about the low king/queen. Overall a fun story,
That one was the only scene that seemed to stand out to me. I mean, it's a nice, "wonder what so and so would think of this new thing" scene, but doesn't lead anywhere. and he's usually good about tying random little scenes like this to the whole.
That one was the only scene that seemed to stand out to me. I mean, it's a nice, "wonder what so and so would think of this new thing" scene, but doesn't lead anywhere. and he's usually good about tying random little scenes like this to the whole.
The most forgiving and positive explanation I can come up with for this book is that it is clearly plot driven: for whatever reason Sir Terry clearly wanted the railway to be firmly established on the Disc. A major undertaking to be completed in one book. The development of the clacks has been a back-story to many books, while the press could be started small and the post office was waking a sleeping giant but the railway pretty much has to involve millions of dollars and hundreds if not thousands of workers.
So... it's like a christmas tree: the tree itself is the development of the railway while all the many Discworld characters are baubles and decorations hung on the branches and none of them - even Moist - are really crucial to the story, hence the lack of focus. Now, I think most DW books are character driven and that is what Sir Terry excels at, with this plot driven book he finds himself in somewhat unfamiliar territory and it shows.
So... it's like a christmas tree: the tree itself is the development of the railway while all the many Discworld characters are baubles and decorations hung on the branches and none of them - even Moist - are really crucial to the story, hence the lack of focus. Now, I think most DW books are character driven and that is what Sir Terry excels at, with this plot driven book he finds himself in somewhat unfamiliar territory and it shows.
You've totally hit the nail with the hammer on that one. One could argue that Iron Girder is the main character of the story (albeit a mostly silent one), and everyone else is a supporting character. In that sense, Raising Steam is very similar to Unseen Academicals, where one could argue that the "football god" was the silent central character all of the other characters (Nutt, Glenda, Trevor, the wizards) orbited around it.
As you also said, these books are very different than earlier "progress of Ankh Morpork" books like Going Postal and Making Moneyy, because in those books the development (moral or otherwise) or the protagonist is at the forefront, and the technology is the "tool" that drives that development.
As you also said, these books are very different than earlier "progress of Ankh Morpork" books like Going Postal and Making Moneyy, because in those books the development (moral or otherwise) or the protagonist is at the forefront, and the technology is the "tool" that drives that development.
I think there are similarities in earlier books. I agree that the main character in RS is the engine itself.
In The Truth, I think the printing press was the major character. The book certainly began and ended with it, and ended with the machinery being portrayed as conscious, demanding to be fed, and the protagonist being a little afraid of it and how much it controlled his life, and then being drawn back into the action and forgetting the thought.
Both books involve a protagonist who is drawn into the situation, not being the inventor of the machine, and end with their being concerned with the degree to which the innovation now controls their lives.
There's a touch of that in GP, except that in that, the dangerous machine was stopped, though not completely destroyed at first, and only lurked in the basement until (I believe) it was destroyed by the fire. On the other hand, the post office itself as an entity, personified by the speaking letters, could be considered the engine that drives Moist von Lipwig - that and the conscious engine that is Mr Pump.
Still, it's true that there seems to be comparatively little conflict in RS, just hidden grags with crowds of followers, as opposed to hidden aristocrats with a couple of hired killers in TT.
In The Truth, I think the printing press was the major character. The book certainly began and ended with it, and ended with the machinery being portrayed as conscious, demanding to be fed, and the protagonist being a little afraid of it and how much it controlled his life, and then being drawn back into the action and forgetting the thought.
Both books involve a protagonist who is drawn into the situation, not being the inventor of the machine, and end with their being concerned with the degree to which the innovation now controls their lives.
There's a touch of that in GP, except that in that, the dangerous machine was stopped, though not completely destroyed at first, and only lurked in the basement until (I believe) it was destroyed by the fire. On the other hand, the post office itself as an entity, personified by the speaking letters, could be considered the engine that drives Moist von Lipwig - that and the conscious engine that is Mr Pump.
Still, it's true that there seems to be comparatively little conflict in RS, just hidden grags with crowds of followers, as opposed to hidden aristocrats with a couple of hired killers in TT.
Would it be reasonable, I wonder, to consider the machines of industrialization to be taking the place of complex villains in Discworld? They are not presented as unalloyed good things, they appear to be at least semi-conscious, even a bit sly, they must be treated with caution. (Why am I thinking of Vetinari?) Looking back: MP had the clicks, as an idea that came in through a crack in the multiverse. WA had that oddly clicky wand. MaA had the gonne, SM had a guitar, and TT had the press. To be fair, not all machinery is conscious; ToT had that clock (punned on in the title of NW) but it wasn't conscious, nor was the basement machine in GP. The basement machine in MM wasn't conscious, though its maker, Igor, could be considered a kind of dangerous machine in that he builds what is asked for, without concern for the eventual potential mayhem - something that could be said of most if not all Igors.
I see it as an expansion of the Clacks system. This is the Industrial Revolution in miniature. When the railways were first invented, they actually cause tremendous changes throughout the world. The need to find a system where every town had the same time on their clocks, the opening of small towns and the development of suburbs, the possibility to move perishable goods to places that had never had them before - these are just some of the things. Also the creation of new and very different jobs. This is particularly relevant (I believe) to the opening of the United States. I suspect that many towns and cities in the US exist because they were near the railway.
Discworld has now been opened. Places like Uberwald are days rather than weeks away and travel is possible in comfort and relative safety. The railway is running through lawless places that are being cleared of villains. The dwarfs seem to represent, not only the fundamentalists, but also the Luddite types who are determined to destroy anything new. They see "new" as bad and fight against change.
This book is as fast paced as the railway itself. The Discworld will never be the same again and it has come a tremendous distance since the Medieval place it was in the early books. The same with the Industrial Revolution - I don't think humans could easily go back to the way things were before it.
Discworld has now been opened. Places like Uberwald are days rather than weeks away and travel is possible in comfort and relative safety. The railway is running through lawless places that are being cleared of villains. The dwarfs seem to represent, not only the fundamentalists, but also the Luddite types who are determined to destroy anything new. They see "new" as bad and fight against change.
This book is as fast paced as the railway itself. The Discworld will never be the same again and it has come a tremendous distance since the Medieval place it was in the early books. The same with the Industrial Revolution - I don't think humans could easily go back to the way things were before it.
In Moving Pictures, it wasn't a natural thing - and without posting spoilers, there was an outside interference. And, as Dug says - it's Terry's world and he can develop it in any way he sees fit. I would say that Discworld has been heading towards this Industrial Revolution period for quite some time. I think it started as far back as (arguably) Hogfather, which had a very Victorian feel to it. Later books such as The Truth, Going Postal and later, all have a feeling that the Discworld has moved on from the Swords & Sorcery/Medieval feel of the earlier books.
In SM, the situation pretty much took care of itself. (Still, in the Trousers of Time, who knows what other versions happened?) In MP, Vetinari was puzzled, but he didn't issue any orders. He didn't have to; by the time it was known to be really dangerous, the situation was taken care of. In TT, Vetinari investigated, but decided that it was just technology, nothing eldritch. Probably he had already realized the potential for controlling what people read. I suspect he was in the mood to annoy the guilds, too. After the development of the press and the clacks, as Tony pointed out, the railway is just more technology. Possibly Vetinari is tired of salt fish too.
Now that they have the railway, how long before the Undertaking becomes a reality?
Now that they have the railway, how long before the Undertaking becomes a reality?
While I think it's valid to argue that the gonne was the villain in MAA, I think it's a stretch to say that the other "industrial" products are villains. The press in TT was really a neutral thing; it could be used either for good (exposing conspiracies hatched by the wealthy) or for perpetuating lies (stories about alien abductions and snake children). None of the other technologies you mention were sentient at all--certainly not the way Iron Girder is in RS.
Vetinari is pretty much the bellwhether of "acceptance" of technological change. He was opposed to moving pictures and music with rocks, but by the time of The Fifth Elephant he certainly was in favor of the clacks, which one would have thought represented one of the biggest threats to the control of information. His change in attitude toward the clacks paved the way for him to approve the press in The Truth, and from that point forward (especially after benefiting first hand from the press), he has been in favor of technological advancements that he perceives primarily benefits Ankh Morpork.
The other "supporting" machines--the sorting machine in GP, the Glooper in MM, even the Devices in Snuff--aren't essential to the plots and really are there mainly to "eldritch up" momentary polot points.
Vetinari is pretty much the bellwhether of "acceptance" of technological change. He was opposed to moving pictures and music with rocks, but by the time of The Fifth Elephant he certainly was in favor of the clacks, which one would have thought represented one of the biggest threats to the control of information. His change in attitude toward the clacks paved the way for him to approve the press in The Truth, and from that point forward (especially after benefiting first hand from the press), he has been in favor of technological advancements that he perceives primarily benefits Ankh Morpork.
The other "supporting" machines--the sorting machine in GP, the Glooper in MM, even the Devices in Snuff--aren't essential to the plots and really are there mainly to "eldritch up" momentary polot points.
