SPOILERS Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
meerkat said:
feanor, do you mean that Humanists will not go to heaven? I've been booked in for AGES! 
Even as a Christian, I can't speak for God in the slightest. And wouldnt presume to do so. It's one of mans faults in my eyes that some folks try to predict and force on others their ideas of what he likes or doesnt like. I believe we wont know until we meet him on our particular judgement day. And if that's the case, I think I'm buggered, let alone anyone else LOL !
raisindot said:
Hey Feanor, agree with your views but you probably shouldn't put my words in Roland's "mouth'; you don't want to saddle him with my well-established reputation as an ornery, misanthropic critic of Pterry's latest works...
Sorry dot. I'm crap with the whole Quote thing. sorry for any mis-attribution.
feanor said:
raisindot said:
Hey Feanor, agree with your views but you probably shouldn't put my words in Roland's "mouth'; you don't want to saddle him with my well-established reputation as an ornery, misanthropic critic of Pterry's latest works...
Sorry dot. I'm crap with the whole Quote thing. sorry for any mis-attribution.
Ah, I don't mind.
And yes, dot, I got familiar to your reputation already while I was first reading the threads in this forum before I even registered to the forum.
(And at instant I felt homely with the forum and all you controversial discussing lot.
)@ feanor: Nicely put, I think I also would be buggered.*
*Only the hedgehog wouldn't, as everybody know. *cough*
RolandItwasntmyfault said:
feanor said:
raisindot said:
Hey Feanor, agree with your views but you probably shouldn't put my words in Roland's "mouth'; you don't want to saddle him with my well-established reputation as an ornery, misanthropic critic of Pterry's latest works...
Sorry dot. I'm crap with the whole Quote thing. sorry for any mis-attribution.
Ah, I don't mind.
And yes, dot, I got familiar to your reputation already while I was first reading the threads in this forum before I even registered to the forum.
(And at instant I felt homely with the forum and all you controversial discussing lot.
)
I was reading Reaper Man again and was stunned and delighted to discover it mentions Ned Simnel, a blacksmith working on a new-fangled reaping machine. As he is trying to imagine a better method to power his new machine than horses or clockwork, the kettle boils over and puts the fire out.
"Simnel fought his way through the steam. That was the bloody trouble, every time. Whenever someone was trying to do a bit of sensible thinking, there's always some pointless distraction."
I never noticed the tie-in until today, though probably everyone else has already. Even so, I had to post about it because it is just so incredibly masterful of Sir Terry to have connected the stories this way.
Cheers
"Simnel fought his way through the steam. That was the bloody trouble, every time. Whenever someone was trying to do a bit of sensible thinking, there's always some pointless distraction."
I never noticed the tie-in until today, though probably everyone else has already. Even so, I had to post about it because it is just so incredibly masterful of Sir Terry to have connected the stories this way.
Cheers
Raising Steam was mostly OK. The plot became too predictable and formulaic mid-book. But there was one bit that made my day, and that was Albrecht Albrechtson's speech to Ardent. The way Pratchett depicted a conservative politician that was actually someone I could respect and even admire - which rarely if ever happens in real life. One who had good reasons to stick with the Old Ways, and who came to realize those reasons no longer applied (or at least not as strongly as before) and was open to change, as long as change was supported by reasonable justification.
One of the weakest points: With its history in many past books, when so many Watchpersons are present, it is hard to find any crime much of a challenge. Which makes it almost impossible to write any kind of books featuring Vimes or the Watch heavily believably suspenseful. Vimes has become another Vetinari - can add flavor if used sparingly, anything beyond that is overdone.
Re: Vetinari's characterization: To people who complained earlier in this thread: This is not the first time Vetinari openly mentions being a tyrant. He did it in Making Money too. I don't think he is ever subtle with Moist, come to think of it. The chatty Vetinari has been around since at least Unseen Academicals.
As for at which point Charlie became involved - somewhere around page 200, after Moist leaves the Oblong Office, Vetinari asks Drumknott how Charlie's clowning business was doing. I think that was when Vetinari first raised the possibility of employing Charlie as his 'replacement'. Between that moment and the beginning of the train ride, there are three scenes in which Vetinari appears, and in at least one of them Drumknott isn't present, so that limits the possibilities for scenes where we haven't seen the real Vetinari. I do think Vetinari must have taken a few forays as Stoker Blake before the big train ride to Uberwald because he already had the reputation, so Charlie may have had a few visits to the Oblong Office during the weeks leading to the train ride, though I doubt we saw more than one of them.
One of the weakest points: With its history in many past books, when so many Watchpersons are present, it is hard to find any crime much of a challenge. Which makes it almost impossible to write any kind of books featuring Vimes or the Watch heavily believably suspenseful. Vimes has become another Vetinari - can add flavor if used sparingly, anything beyond that is overdone.
Re: Vetinari's characterization: To people who complained earlier in this thread: This is not the first time Vetinari openly mentions being a tyrant. He did it in Making Money too. I don't think he is ever subtle with Moist, come to think of it. The chatty Vetinari has been around since at least Unseen Academicals.
As for at which point Charlie became involved - somewhere around page 200, after Moist leaves the Oblong Office, Vetinari asks Drumknott how Charlie's clowning business was doing. I think that was when Vetinari first raised the possibility of employing Charlie as his 'replacement'. Between that moment and the beginning of the train ride, there are three scenes in which Vetinari appears, and in at least one of them Drumknott isn't present, so that limits the possibilities for scenes where we haven't seen the real Vetinari. I do think Vetinari must have taken a few forays as Stoker Blake before the big train ride to Uberwald because he already had the reputation, so Charlie may have had a few visits to the Oblong Office during the weeks leading to the train ride, though I doubt we saw more than one of them.
Years ago, fans were complaining that Vetinari never showed himself actually being a tyrant and they doubted his reputation. Possibly that had something to do with his being more open about it.
During the tour for Unseen Academicals, I had a chance to ask Sir Terry a question and I asked about what I perceived as a change in Vetinari in Making Money, and he said that Vetinari has to be very harsh with Moist in order to make him change. Subtlety wouldn't work.
I was under the impression that the idea was mentioned at the end of The Truth. Maybe that particular scene is when Charlie is brought into action in this book.
I can't see Charlie being sufficiently competent to get Stoker Blake's reputation, so despite how fast a learner Vetinari is, I think he must have been there most of the time. That could explain rather a lot of Vetinari's unusual behavior in the office as Charlie's overacting.
During the tour for Unseen Academicals, I had a chance to ask Sir Terry a question and I asked about what I perceived as a change in Vetinari in Making Money, and he said that Vetinari has to be very harsh with Moist in order to make him change. Subtlety wouldn't work.
I was under the impression that the idea was mentioned at the end of The Truth. Maybe that particular scene is when Charlie is brought into action in this book.
I can't see Charlie being sufficiently competent to get Stoker Blake's reputation, so despite how fast a learner Vetinari is, I think he must have been there most of the time. That could explain rather a lot of Vetinari's unusual behavior in the office as Charlie's overacting.
To Tamar:
I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that there must have been earlier instances, sometime between the time Vetinari asked Drumknott about Charlie and the train trip that we see, when Vetinari rode the trains as a stoker, while Charlie acted in his place at the Palace. At the end of the book Drumknott thanks Charlie for 2 weeks of service. I think those 2 weeks cover the 4 days or so of travel to Uberwald, the days spent in Uberwald and the time it took Vetinari to return, presumably by coach. But in order for people to already know of Stoker Blake, he must have traveled a bit before. So Charlie must have been at the Palace several times rather than one long stint.
I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that there must have been earlier instances, sometime between the time Vetinari asked Drumknott about Charlie and the train trip that we see, when Vetinari rode the trains as a stoker, while Charlie acted in his place at the Palace. At the end of the book Drumknott thanks Charlie for 2 weeks of service. I think those 2 weeks cover the 4 days or so of travel to Uberwald, the days spent in Uberwald and the time it took Vetinari to return, presumably by coach. But in order for people to already know of Stoker Blake, he must have traveled a bit before. So Charlie must have been at the Palace several times rather than one long stint.
I think we're agreeing. I agree, I also think that Vetinari had to have spent rather a lot of time being Stoker Blake.
I feel that Charlie had to have been place-filling at the palace for a lot more time than we see on the page, though I haven't worked out the exact time sequence. The two weeks could just have been the most recent session, as Charlie has the gig on standby. I think Charlie may have had to start the stoker job and be the ignorant one at first, with Drumknott being there being "enthusiastic" and reporting in detail to Vetinari, so that Vetinari could take the position later about the time that "Blake" is supposed to become competent, without making any mistakes about what Charlie may have said and done. (Note, I also think Drumknott may be genuinely enthusiastic, but part of it is his cover for observing. He has to be there _and_ carry messages back and forth so he can advise Charlie of what Vetinari wants him to do.)
The return trip from Uberwald could have been by several possible magical methods; are we told exactly how it's done?
I don't remember.
I feel that Charlie had to have been place-filling at the palace for a lot more time than we see on the page, though I haven't worked out the exact time sequence. The two weeks could just have been the most recent session, as Charlie has the gig on standby. I think Charlie may have had to start the stoker job and be the ignorant one at first, with Drumknott being there being "enthusiastic" and reporting in detail to Vetinari, so that Vetinari could take the position later about the time that "Blake" is supposed to become competent, without making any mistakes about what Charlie may have said and done. (Note, I also think Drumknott may be genuinely enthusiastic, but part of it is his cover for observing. He has to be there _and_ carry messages back and forth so he can advise Charlie of what Vetinari wants him to do.)
The return trip from Uberwald could have been by several possible magical methods; are we told exactly how it's done?
I don't remember.
